Former Members of Congress

00;03;28;05 - 00;03;56;13
Speaker 1
We're going to go ahead and get started. My name is Lee Katz I serve as the interim dean of Seaver College. Welcome to the W. David Baird lecture series. David Baird was Dean of Seaver College for ten years, was a mentor of mine. He was a renowned scholar and historian, and it was his dream to start this lecture series. And he did in 2002 - Dean Baird

00;03;56;13 - 00;04;26;28
Speaker 1
And his wife, Jane are now retired and live in Texas. His idea was to bring in leaders and policymakers to the university on a regular basis so that students and faculty could interact and think about these big ideas with our guests like we have with us today. So thank you for being here. It's co-sponsored by the School of Public Policy this afternoon and with details about the rest of the event.

00;04;26;29 - 00;05;18;00
Speaker 1
I’m going to throw it to my friend and colleague, the dean of the School of Public Policy, Dean Peterson, Thank you very much. Dean Katz. I am Pete Petersen, the very grateful dean of Pepperdine's graduate school of Public Policy, and it's a delight to partner with you in co-hosting this event. I should also mention that there's a third partner in this as well, an organization called former Members of Congress, which, as the name connotes, is a group of former members of Congress, student based in Washington, D.C. And it's an organization that we did, has a particular program called Congress the Campus, which is a way of connecting congressmen with the campus.

00;05;18;02 - 00;06;05;05
Speaker 1
And that's what tonight's op ed is about. We have a delightful time with our two representatives today, and I know you will as well, introducing that we will be joined by first Alan Rosenthal. He is a long time leader from the local government. He was former city council member and Laguna in Long Beach, then went out through the state Senate, state Assembly and was a ten year had a ten year tenure in Congress representing a district that encompassed southern Los Angeles County and northern Orange County.

00;06;05;08 - 00;06;39;10
Speaker 1
Also here is maybe Walters, maybe also started her public service career as a city council member. City council member and Laguna Niguel also represented that region in both the state Assembly and state Senate. And then she went on to have a four year tenure in the U.S. Congress representing that district. We have a Democrat and Republican here. And as a school that is deeply committed to what we call viewpoint diversity.

00;06;39;13 - 00;07;07;28
Speaker 1
I know you're going to enjoy hearing both of their experiences. I know in being together with both of them at dinner last night, there are some incredible stories, but also some inspiring ones of people even across the aisle, people who serve together not only in Washington, D.C., but in the state capitol in Sacramento, can get things done. Moderating this conversation tonight will be our own Dr. Robert Kaufman.

00;07;08;00 - 00;07;36;23
Speaker 1
Dr. Kaufman teaches courses for us both in our class, but is a specialist in air and national security. He is has 46 different degrees, including a Ph.D. from Columbia and also degree from our Strauss Institute. So without further ado, I should just note the agenda for tonight is we're going to begin with a moderating conversation with Dr. Kaufman.

00;07;36;25 - 00;08;00;14
Speaker 1
Then we'll move into a Q&A with you all. So I hope you have some great questions for these two incredible leaders. So now, without any further, please join me in welcoming our speakers.

00;08;00;16 - 00;08;08;17
Speaker 2
The wow.

00;08;08;20 - 00;08;09;12
Speaker 3
We he.

00;08;09;15 - 00;08;50;17
Speaker 2
Welcome. Good evening and congressman. Both of you, thank you for being here. Let's start with a nice, placid, non-controversial statement. Congress is not a very popular institution. If you look at the polls over the past 15 years, the approval rating of Congress has hovered between 18 and 19%. That makes President Biden and Candidate Trump on their worst days look wildly popular.

00;08;50;19 - 00;09;26;02
Speaker 2
Let me ask you the Marvin Gaye question, both of you. What's going on? Why is discontent so high for so long about Congress, how it functions and how it operates? Well, now the two of us are gone. It's going to be even worse, no doubt. It's no doubt. Maybe we need a little humor. And part of it is there is there's a nation that's badly divided.

00;09;26;04 - 00;10;00;28
Speaker 2
Congress reflects that division. The members of Congress are reflect the districts that they're coming from, that they come from. And and so that's one part of why I think Congress is so thought of so it's a very complex world. I'm not trying to make light of why it is. And being in Congress, it's like it's a tough act to follow.

00;10;00;29 - 00;10;28;17
Speaker 2
I mean, it's it's a tough job and you work all the time and recently and you don't see many of the results of what you're doing. And so that's part of the problem, I think, is the very nature of the beast and whether the beast really reflects the needs of the country at this time. And so, you know, it's very hard to get things done in Congress.

00;10;28;18 - 00;10;52;20
Speaker 2
It's it's a very divided country. So you're going to have a divided Congress. I think that's in part the way or the people who designed the forefathers wanted it to be that way because they wanted stability. They didn't want radical change in the Congress. They did not want a government that that under one party, when it just moved from one section, they didn't want it.

00;10;52;20 - 00;11;18;29
Speaker 2
Like the European countries where you lose a vote of confidence in the government ends. I don't think that's really what was designed. So the Congress was not really designed to move very rapidly. It was designed not to do that. And and I think today, where there are so many needs and we are so divided and people say, well, Congress, why aren't you solving it?

00;11;18;29 - 00;11;48;15
Speaker 2
And it's it's very hard when when actually the membership is so divided. So I'll leave that up from now. I tend to talk for. Me, me, me, me. We've kind of answered this a little bit, this question in other places. And so I'm going to you know, what it's like when there's not a divided Congress. The party when one party has control of the executive branch, then the House and the Senate.

00;11;48;15 - 00;11;52;23
Speaker 2
And when we have what we have today, a divided Congress.

00;11;52;26 - 00;12;25;05
Speaker 3
I just to add on to what Alan has said, is he I agree that the structure of our system the Founding Fathers had created was designed not to have anything to radically done too quickly. And it was designed to have more input and to slow things down. I also believe that when one party has complete control, like when I was in Congress and Donald Trump was elected, we the Republicans had control of the House and the Senate.

00;12;25;07 - 00;12;54;23
Speaker 3
When one party has control, it's your agenda and you're able to get a lot accomplished. And so people might feel like things got accomplished, whether they like them or not. But I also believe what really adds in to this narrative of a divided Congress is the media, because behind the scenes, what you don't see are is legislation that is passed on a bipartisan basis.

00;12;54;23 - 00;13;20;25
Speaker 3
But guess what? That doesn't make the news. The news isn't going to talk about how great the Congress is doing and getting along and they're passing bipartisan bills. The news needs to create a reason for people to watch it. So they're going to take the controversial issues where Republicans and Democrats don't see eye to eye and the media is going to try to make sure the public knows it.

00;13;20;27 - 00;13;50;13
Speaker 3
You look at social media, the fact that we have social media today makes it even that more apparent that people are maybe not getting along because it's out there so much more. Look at how much you guys are on your phones looking at X or Instagram or whatever it is these days that you're following. Everybody is following social media and the people that are getting the clicks are the ones that are are being saying outrageous things.

00;13;50;16 - 00;14;05;15
Speaker 3
Republicans and Democrats are saying outrageous things so they can get clicks. I mean, that really plays into a lot of this narrative. And if you didn't have the media pay so much attention to it, I'm not sure that those results of your poll would be the same.

00;14;05;17 - 00;14;37;16
Speaker 2
Is part of the issue also the way American politics has changed since the fifties and sixties? So Brian Neuman is here, is a congressional scholar. And in the fifties and sixties, people like Frank Soboroff and most of the elite in academics lamented that we did not have programmatic parties like the Europeans did. You had conservatives, Southern Democrats, liberal Northern Republicans.

00;14;37;18 - 00;15;30;21
Speaker 2
Well, we got what they wanted, and now we have almost a perfect storm of two very programmatic, largely ideological parties, very few moderate Democrats, progressive Republicans. I wrote a biography of the Scoop Jackson, Joe Lieberman, They don't exist. The Clifford cases don't exist. Isn't part of what has happened. The fact that we are a deeply divided and we're closely divided and actually the both of you this afternoon at the School of Public Policy illustrated that in your discussion of energy policy, you were silent.

00;15;30;23 - 00;16;00;22
Speaker 2
But I knew you didn't agree. Congressman Lowenthal said that energy was the existential issue that we are facing. You don't think that. Do you? And to the contrary, you see traditional geopolitical competitors as the existential issue, and your remedy for the energy issue is market based and energy independence, correct?

00;16;00;25 - 00;16;27;14
Speaker 3
Absolutely. I think we have to be a country that is dependent, energy independent. And what we can't do is depend on our adversaries because government's number one job is to protect its citizens. And if you start relying on our adversaries for our energy needs, they could take us down in a nanosecond. And I get very concerned about cybersecurity.

00;16;27;17 - 00;16;55;25
Speaker 3
I get very concerned that that an adversary could come in and take down our grid. And then what happens to us? We're done. And while global warming and the environment is an important issue, and I think that that we all need to be very cognizant of our environment. That's our responsibility. I also think that national security and energy independence is much more important.

00;16;55;27 - 00;17;03;09
Speaker 2
So given that you two fundamentally disagree and you're not outliers.

00;17;03;11 - 00;17;13;00
Speaker 2
How do we deal with that in a constructive way and learn to disagree agreeably?

00;17;13;02 - 00;17;43;29
Speaker 2
Well, you know, sometimes you make it out as though we've never had really times of critical disagreement in this country. We had a civil war in this country. We had tremendous differences at that time. We've had open violence on the floor, historic order of the House of Representatives. So this is not the fact that the country is divided and the Congress is divided is not such an atypical period.

00;17;43;29 - 00;18;13;08
Speaker 2
And this has been long in coming. This is not something that just occurred in the last, you know, few years in part. You know, we we both kind of struggle with that issue of how we work together. Part of it is and I think I'm taking from what Mimi said earlier and I said earlier, but mostly Mimi, you know, it used to be that members came to Congress and they lived together and they spend all their time in Congress and their families grew up.

00;18;13;08 - 00;18;41;17
Speaker 2
They knew each other. They went to the same schools, they went to the same community meetings they met. And there was a sense of community. There is no longer a sense of community in Congress. You get there and, you know, on a monday, you fly all day from those of us from California, you're there. You're just in time to vote or have meetings, and then you have your busy the whole time until Thursday or Friday.

00;18;41;24 - 00;19;01;19
Speaker 2
And as soon as session's over, you're on a plane home state because you're expected to be in your district. That does not create a sense of community. But the community that we live in, mine being Long Beach, Mimi's in Orange County, demands that you're there on the weekends. They you know, you've got to be there. They want to see you.

00;19;01;21 - 00;19;23;05
Speaker 2
Things are, you know, so important to them and they are. And so where we are and with the advent of the jet plane, they were important before, but there was no way that people could get more, you know, at one time back and forth in a reasonable way. So there are lots of reasons why, but we're not a sense of community.

00;19;23;05 - 00;19;45;29
Speaker 2
We don't have an overarching sense of values where we agree upon this country's values and who we are and in the Congress this way. But that's the people of of this country don't have that anymore. And I don't feel that they have this sense of, you know, that they're one nation that we believe. You know, if you were either on my team or the other team.

00;19;46;06 - 00;20;19;28
Speaker 2
And it's a frightening situation in that. But I don't find it just in Congress for for students of Congressman Lowenthal was not speaking figuratively. And in the 1850s, Preston Brooks of South Carolina literally beat Charles Sumner of Massachusetts into a coma, which took him years to recover from. So you're absolutely right. Acrimony is not something new in American politics.

00;20;20;01 - 00;20;33;19
Speaker 2
But on the other hand, the 1850s or so is a warning. What is your role? What is your take on that, the polarization of Congress? Well.

00;20;33;21 - 00;21;15;00
Speaker 3
I think the problem, as Alan referred to, is that development of relationships. And I think that it's a lot more difficult to say to somebody, face, I think you're a jerk than to put it on social media. And the fact that members of Congress, there's so much demand on them to be in their districts on the weekends and they can't be back in Washington, D.C. They can't develop their relationships with their colleagues on the other side of the aisle, I think is a disservice because if you get to know somebody and you want to work with that person, you'll be able to find common ground.

00;21;15;02 - 00;21;41;23
Speaker 3
And you can't find common ground with somebody necessarily unless you have that opportunity, opportunity to develop that relationship. My own personal experience, when I got to Congress, I had 230 members in my own conference. I had to get to know that's 230, and that was only the Republicans. And so by the time I get there, I'm even trying to learn where the bathroom is.

00;21;41;24 - 00;22;03;05
Speaker 3
I mean, I'm trying to learn the process. And I didn't have a lot of time to develop relationships with members on the other side of the aisle. And by the way, if you look at the House, the Republicans sit on one side, the Democrats sit on the other side. It's not like we're intermingled. When you're in committee, Republicans are on one side, Democrats are on the other side.

00;22;03;11 - 00;22;25;25
Speaker 3
That's done by design. And the reason it's done that way is because when there's critical legislation that the majority party wants to have passed, they want all of their members of their conference to be together. They don't want the members of their conference to be sitting with the other side. Now, people do go back and forth, but there's a reason that the House is designed the way it is.

00;22;25;27 - 00;22;38;20
Speaker 3
But I think it's the that interpersonal relationship that is missing that they used to have back in the day where people had an opportunity and there was time to be able to negotiate on big issues.

00;22;38;22 - 00;22;57;13
Speaker 2
Both of you said that there are many instances that we don't see where Congress actually does cooperate and it is bipartisan. Could both of you give me your recent success story and your analysis of why it was a success?

00;22;57;16 - 00;23;32;06
Speaker 3
Well, I'll tell you, a piece of legislation that I carried with Zoe Lofgren, who was a Democrat from the Bay Area. She was when I was in Congress, I said on the Judiciary Committee, there was a woman who had a piece of legislation that had to do with sexual the survivors of sexual assault. She wanted some legislation that was very it was very common sense about, you know, you know, having the rape kit not expire over a certain period of time, notifying the victim of sexual assault.

00;23;32;06 - 00;23;51;00
Speaker 3
It was very, you know, reasonable legislation. And she and I got together, we carried the legislation, and it passed unanimously out of both the House and the Senate. You guys didn't hear about that because it wasn't a big deal. It wasn't newsworthy.

00;23;51;03 - 00;24;19;07
Speaker 2
When I this is another small example. When I arrived in Congress, one of the first things that we all did was have a class picture of all the new members. And I came into was elected in 2012. We had a large number of new members, both Republicans and Democrats, it turns out, and I'm a progressive Dem, I know I like listen to everybody and I like to understand.

00;24;19;10 - 00;24;39;11
Speaker 2
I'm a psychologist, but I fall under the side of being a progressive Dem the person standing next to me in the picture. We start to chat and get to know and it's Mark Meadows, who is one of the founders of the Freedom Caucus. And so Mark starts to chat with them. I chat with Mark. We develop a relationship.

00;24;39;13 - 00;25;04;29
Speaker 2
I say, Mark, I got, you know, Mark. He meets my wife, Debbie. I meet his wife. Mark is going to be taking a trip with the Freedom Caucus. Mark invites me to go with the Freedom Caucus on a trip because we had that opportunity. The first bill I introduced didn't go anywhere because part it's very hard for new members, especially if you have large issues to go anywhere right away.

00;25;04;29 - 00;25;34;13
Speaker 2
And Congress was a bill to really provide an ongoing revenue stream, a fee, you might even call it a tax on the maritime industry. I represent the Port of Long Beach to pay for an ongoing environmental and infrastructure improvements. Have the industry itself pay for it. My first co-sponsor was somebody was Mark Meadows, who would never, you know, normally vote for bills.

00;25;34;20 - 00;25;55;10
Speaker 2
That's because Mark and I. Two answers had developed a relationship, was just fortuitous and part of it was going on a trip with Mark and his family and it just worked out that way. And I always thought it was really interesting that the Freedom Caucus wanted this lefty Jew to go to Israel with them. But that's all right.

00;25;55;13 - 00;26;26;11
Speaker 2
I really got to know them and I could call upon them for individual favors when I needed and they could call upon me. And they did. And so we don't do enough of that. We don't have those kinds of relationships that Mimi talked about enough. And goodness knows, you know, Mark knew that I wanted to have some Republicans on this bill, and he knew it wasn't going anywhere, but he knew that he wanted to help me on that.

00;26;26;13 - 00;26;57;02
Speaker 2
We don't have enough of people saying I want you know, I want this institution to work. I want you to be successful. I want to see what how we can make this institution work better. Let me propose an alternative. Sure. It is working that we are Maybe. Maybe we're saying there's a lot of things that, you know, it is working by the partizanship we are divided.

00;26;57;04 - 00;27;31;10
Speaker 2
We have fundamentally different points of view. One of the best talks I ever saw here and there have been many good ones, was having lunch with the Justice Scalia. And he didn't speak about his legal philosophy. He was talking about his parenting, giving most of the credit to his wife. And he said that the key to raising eight children successfully was learning how to fight within boundaries, within region above the belt.

00;27;31;13 - 00;28;06;09
Speaker 2
But it is actually healthy that a divided country is fighting so vigorously for issues that are so fundamental. Well, I think there's a difference between fighting vigorously for what you believe and standing and having a vitriolic system where people are just trying to be take down the other side and be angry at them. I think sometimes we cross the line in Congress, both parties, and in being letting that anger spill out onto the floor.

00;28;06;11 - 00;28;36;04
Speaker 2
And that's what we're talking about to disrupt, because once that spills out, it's hard to put the genie back in the bottle once once that kind of attack, vitriol, anger at the other side for just having positions, putting the other side down. And, you know, I think and in part it's maybe and I think in part it has it you know, it doesn't all did not work.

00;28;36;10 - 00;28;59;09
Speaker 2
It works. You know, you know, it's like journalism journalists have a and I'm now making generalizations about journalism when they're working on a story when there used to be newspapers, you know, when they're working on a story frequently they wait until the last minute to get it done. And you never know when it's going to get done if you you have interest on it.

00;28;59;12 - 00;29;23;12
Speaker 2
Well, the same thing Congress is very adept at getting things done at the last minute. We are not closing down our government and keeping it going, which is the main responsibility of government, because both sides ultimately will work together and form budgets. It happens at the last minute. It happens when everybody is claiming and the newspapers are claiming the world is ending.

00;29;23;14 - 00;29;50;04
Speaker 2
But those of us in Congress know it's going to happen. They're going to work together. I to me, the hardest part is not so much there's that conflict in that. The hardest part is the overt expression of dehumanizing and anger towards each other, where it crosses the line. Not all people, just a few. Yeah, it puts up a tone that that is very, very discouraging.

00;29;50;07 - 00;29;52;09
Speaker 2
Spoken like a psychologist.

00;29;52;12 - 00;30;13;06
Speaker 3
I was going to say, it's a good thing you're not Alexander Hamilton. Heather. Why? Otherwise Aaron Burr might have shot you in a duel. That would have been really bad. Yeah, but I mean, I think it's human nature. I mean, we are humans and we clearly don't have a perfect system. There is no system out there that is perfect.

00;30;13;08 - 00;30;44;26
Speaker 3
But people lose their tempers and they get angry at each other just like, you know, you have family, family fights. And I think it is healthy that we have differing opinions. And by the way, most of the decisions, most of the really, really big decisions get made in the middle. Both sides have to give. And that's just the way that our founding fathers founded the system so that not one person's opinion is going to rule, that you're going to have different viewpoints finally come together.

00;30;44;26 - 00;31;05;13
Speaker 3
Remember Ronald Reagan, one of his his best sayings was don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. There's a lot of good that comes out of some of this legislation, but it's not going to be perfect. And you do have an element on the right and an element on the left that are always going to say no.

00;31;05;13 - 00;31;23;04
Speaker 3
And they pretend that they're purists and they pretend that their districts want them to be that way. But that's just them. They want to be purists and they're going to continue to fight and they're never going to be in that middle and compromise. They're just not going to.

00;31;23;06 - 00;32;03;19
Speaker 2
Winston Churchill remarked, among other things, that the United States has the worst political system ever. But it's except except for anybody else. Yeah. So I'm going to ask you about a series of reforms that have been proposed across the spectrum. Some believe, actually, that that we should have more programmatic parties. Others believe to the contrary, we should adhere to the founders vision of making things difficult and encourage rational deliberation and choice.

00;32;03;21 - 00;32;08;27
Speaker 2
But I'm going to ask you whether the following makes things better or worse.

00;32;09;04 - 00;32;10;12
Speaker 3
Okay.

00;32;10;14 - 00;32;39;07
Speaker 2
Larry Sabato of the University of Virginia has suggested because of the pressures on House members to raise money, the two year election cycles and the disconnect between the House voting, at least in one of the cycles in a presidential election, to yield a clearer mandate. How about four year terms for members of the House of Representatives rather than two year terms?

00;32;39;09 - 00;32;47;11
Speaker 2
How many years? For years and years? Yes. To coincide with the presidential term.

00;32;47;14 - 00;33;05;24
Speaker 3
I don't agree. I think we need to keep two years because if there's something that is really wrong in this country doesn't like something that they see and voters have a chance to make a change in two years, I wouldn't change it.

00;33;05;26 - 00;33;12;21
Speaker 2
It's not my make my first priority of change. I want to hear you the rest of your list. Okay.

00;33;12;24 - 00;33;14;04
Speaker 3
did I know too quickly that.

00;33;14;07 - 00;33;15;13
Speaker 2
No, I have other.

00;33;15;13 - 00;33;16;12
Speaker 3
Things.

00;33;16;14 - 00;33;19;24
Speaker 2
No, no, I was setting you up because there's a second question.

00;33;19;27 - 00;33;20;18
Speaker 3
okay.

00;33;20;20 - 00;33;22;12
Speaker 2
Assuming you don't want to change it.

00;33;22;13 - 00;33;24;23
Speaker 3
Yeah.

00;33;24;25 - 00;33;43;06
Speaker 2
Would you advocate changing the campaign finance laws? Because one of the complaint is that congressmen spend 80% of their time or thereabouts raising money from the moment they're elected. Is. Is. Yes.

00;33;43;12 - 00;33;44;21
Speaker 3
Okay. So.

00;33;44;23 - 00;34;15;24
Speaker 2
Yes. You would change it? Yes. How? And now that question will go to you, too. Well, you know, the you know, there is there is no doubt that money drives the Congress. It just it's you spend a lot of time raising money. You are somewhat you are beholden to those people because you're going to go back, you know, once you raise money from someone or some institution or some group, it's usually, you know, it's not the last time you ask them.

00;34;15;24 - 00;34;47;26
Speaker 2
You go back and they there's an expectation that you're going to be more sensitive and and and then you have tremendous demands on you in terms of each party expects that their members will raise a great deal of money and give to the party coffers. And so money dominates the whole thing and the situation. Too much time is spent raising money, money people think that they have you know, they have they have a say over you.

00;34;47;26 - 00;35;10;01
Speaker 2
And I'm sure they always think that. But. But I, I think that it's a corrupting influence. And so I would favor and I work with John Sarbanes of Maryland. And Mike was introduced is I think House resolution H.R. one I public financing.

00;35;10;03 - 00;35;29;29
Speaker 3
Okay. I don't support public financing. And I'm right now there's limits of what you can and can't give to members of Congress. And you can't give corporate money. You can only give personal money. And it's about 30 $300 right now to give for elections of 3300 for the primary, 300 for the general. That takes a lot of money and a lot of time to raise.

00;35;29;29 - 00;36;01;10
Speaker 3
But the fact is this is a huge industry. It's a huge industry. And what we can't do, in my opinion, is have the taxpayers start financing this. Okay. You want you want to taxes will be raised again. Now, suddenly we're going to start financing the taxpayers. We're going to start financing people who are running for office. And by the way, it hurts those people who aren't wealthy because there is no way that the Constitution is going to say you can't give your money yourself money running for office.

00;36;01;10 - 00;36;15;29
Speaker 3
You will always be able to give your money, yourself money. So you're going to be able to have a bigger advantage. So even though now you can still give yourself money, if you have a lot of money, a person who might not have that much money can go out and raise the money to compete with what you have.

00;36;16;01 - 00;36;39;20
Speaker 3
So you have to give the opportunity for people to go out and raise the money. They they put limits on how much you could raise per person to to try to stop that special interest. And whether that's right or that's wrong, that's for a different debate. However, I don't think the taxpayers should be footing the bill for people to run for office.

00;36;39;20 - 00;36;50;23
Speaker 3
I think that puts a huge burden on the American public. And we already have a huge deficit. And I don't think that that's right.

00;36;50;25 - 00;36;52;00
Speaker 2
Congressman, if I.

00;36;52;01 - 00;36;58;03
Speaker 3
Feel like I'm in a debate here, I know that we're going to get aggro with each other.

00;36;58;05 - 00;37;25;09
Speaker 2
No, no, I think you make a lot of good points. I'm just for public money. Answer. And on that point, your concern seems to be the nexus between money and and influence. Is that correct? In large part, yes. And the amount of time that's spent on it, that's not spent on on working on major issues. And so one spent a tremendous amount of time.

00;37;25;10 - 00;38;02;26
Speaker 2
So one alternative is public financing. Yes. We open to which which critics argue favors the incumbent because challenger, according to many people, requires more money to break in. Given the advantage of incumbency, another alternative, which is the opposite of yours, is to abolish limits altogether. And make it automatically disclose to the electorate who gives what to whom, and then let the electorate make the decision as to whether the well, you disclose now.

00;38;02;26 - 00;38;06;01
Speaker 3
Yes, right. You have to disclose your your contributions now.

00;38;06;03 - 00;38;11;03
Speaker 2
Is that a better alternative? Just I, I open.

00;38;11;11 - 00;38;40;03
Speaker 3
I think in I think it I think if you make it open season, you're going to see the cost even go higher. I would just favor keeping the limits where they are now because they go up a little bit every year. I think that sort of helps level the playing field. You know, there is no way we are going to bring the cost down of elections unless you go to all these different industries that are profiting off of it.

00;38;40;03 - 00;39;06;02
Speaker 3
Your your campaign managers, the the media, you know, the commercials. You know, you have to run commercials. You have to send your mail out all these vendors. Do you think that we're going to talk to all these vendors? By the way, you can't spend a certain amount of money on campaigns anymore. Never going to happen. It just it's not it's just not going to happen.

00;39;06;02 - 00;39;27;28
Speaker 3
You'll kill an industry in in and that's it's just not going to happen. So I think we have to be realistic and I think we have to understand what we're up against. And this is the way politics is. And you have to spend a lot of money unless you can just write yourself a big check. You have to spend a lot of time developing those relationships and raising the money.

00;39;28;01 - 00;39;46;14
Speaker 3
It's and I tell this to two candidates who want to run. So many people think, I'm just going to run for office. It's going to be great. It's going to be a piece of cake. And the minute they have to pick up that phone and ask for a dollar from somebody and they get rejected, they're like, this is it really what I thought this was going to be all about?

00;39;46;16 - 00;39;59;21
Speaker 3
You take a lot of rejection and it helps you get a thick skin because you need to have a thick skin if you ever want to run for office because it is brutal. It is not an easy thing to do.

00;39;59;24 - 00;40;07;21
Speaker 2
Term limits. This should be an easy one for you, but it's not going to be as easy as you think because there's a follow on.

00;40;07;24 - 00;40;12;13
Speaker 3
So, Alan, you go first on this one.

00;40;12;15 - 00;40;44;08
Speaker 2
well, that's a broad question. Just the concept of term. Should or should Congress be term limited? How long? I'm asking you. You're the expert. Well, no, I'm not. I'm generally in favor of term limits. I'd rather see other kinds of changes before before. I'd rather. I'm much more concerned about gerrymandering and the way legislatures pick their own members, you know, by state legislatures do that.

00;40;44;08 - 00;41;10;06
Speaker 2
I think that has to change. I think we have to have a nation of independent redistricting commissions. I think those that's far more impactful than a quick answer on term limits. I do think we do have a problem about people who have been there for long, long periods. I also believe that people who have been in there, sometimes I go to have great wisdom and understanding.

00;41;10;09 - 00;41;43;07
Speaker 2
You know, we have enough problems now not being able to come together. I can't imagine a system where nobody has any history or of the institution being. I think that would be disaster. I'm not saying I am opposed to some rational policy of term limits, but not to get angry at people and not to use it because you think it's dysfunctional and this is what's going to change it all, because God knows we have a enough people who don't know anything about governance.

00;41;43;07 - 00;41;51;20
Speaker 2
And sometimes it just takes some time to be there and to understand and keep your mouth shut and try to learn what's going on and how to govern the country.

00;41;51;24 - 00;42;18;08
Speaker 3
So full disclosure, I used to be in support of term limits when I ran for the state Assembly. That was during a time when term limits were a very big deal and I did support them and then I did my three terms. No, I did two terms in the state assembly before I went to the state Senate. And what I learned in that process was that the staff and the special interests controlled what was happening in Sacramento.

00;42;18;15 - 00;42;54;26
Speaker 3
You know why? Because the legislators, to Allan's point, they are cycling in there, cycling out, and they don't have that institutional knowledge. And you need to have members and elected officials who understand the process and have that institutional knowledge. I know there's been discussions on the Republic inside and presidential candidates talking about wanting members of Congress to sign pledges to to implement term limits and I don't agree with it because of my experience of what I had.

00;42;54;28 - 00;43;34;26
Speaker 3
And I think that's why we have elections. We have elections every two years, so that if you have candidates who are not living up to the expectation of their districts, they can be voted out. And it kind of keeps a check and balance on the elected official, knowing that they're up every two years. But having said that, I will say the the one benefit I think of term limits is it gives more people an opportunity to serve because the incumbent does have a leg up when you're in office and running for reelection and it's harder for a challenger to break in.

00;43;34;28 - 00;43;57;17
Speaker 3
So that is one of the actual positives. And I don't know, honestly, if I would have ever been elected to the state assembly had there not been term limits because my member was being term limited out and it was an open seat. So it's a good thing I'm not running for office because I just did n180 on what I how I felt about term limits.

00;43;57;19 - 00;43;59;24
Speaker 2
Well, you're entitled to change.

00;43;59;24 - 00;44;01;27
Speaker 3
Your boss, right? I'm entitled to change my mind.

00;44;01;27 - 00;44;34;29
Speaker 2
Here as we're talking to you. A follow up question on term limits, however, should there be constitutional symmetry in the treatment of term limit? One of the complaints of people in Congress is that no one gets things done. Well, since the 22nd Amendment is term, limited presidents every second term president, even following the most massive landslide of Nixon in 72.

00;44;35;01 - 00;45;14;25
Speaker 2
Reagan in 1984 has been problematic. No matter who wins this time, assuming it's going to be President Trump, we are electing a lame duck president, which, if history is any guide and it's been a long history of it, with no exceptions. We're heading into a difficult second term, no matter who it is, unless should we eliminate term limits for the president if we don't have them for Congress?

00;45;14;25 - 00;45;28;24
Speaker 2
Or should we have term limits for Supreme Court justices, Congress and the president to have constitutional symmetry? Is that one of the answers to ameliorate what ails us.

00;45;28;27 - 00;46;08;05
Speaker 3
To use as a loaded question that I was only going to say unless the lame duck, whoever is elected president, is lame duck. If you have a divided Congress, if you have one party that wins outright, you're not going to have a lame duck president for at least two years because one party will have control. So that's the only that's the only reason I think there could be an opportunity, at least for two years minimum, if again, if one party wins, wins everything, that the president will be successful, whomever it is.

00;46;08;07 - 00;46;35;16
Speaker 3
Listen, I you know, I haven't given a lot of thought to what you are asking because it's novel to me. So I haven't had a chance to think about, you know, making term limits or doing away with term limits for the presidency. You know, I'm not sure what the benefits are of that.

00;46;35;18 - 00;47;21;03
Speaker 2
Well, the argument is that the president unofficially, after Washington, decided not to run for a third term, everybody until Franklin Roosevelt abided by that. But the argument is that the fact that legally the president could run gave that president more leverage right then than automatically knowing, despite the magic term limits. I think I'm not a historian, but I believe term limits were a result of President Roosevelt being elected for four terms, that it's a reaction to that they pass term limits not because they were a national debate before then or since then on the value of term limits.

00;47;21;03 - 00;47;32;23
Speaker 2
And so I think if you if it is important, I think we need to act and probably we don't do enough in this country is to have a real discussion in the national. I don't think I.

00;47;32;27 - 00;47;34;25
Speaker 3
Don't think we've had that national.

00;47;34;27 - 00;47;35;11
Speaker 2
Discussion.

00;47;35;11 - 00;47;41;19
Speaker 3
Nor do they haven't. We have not had it. And so I think it might be something worth discussing.

00;47;41;19 - 00;48;02;26
Speaker 2
I keep saying personally, I keep believing in my priority that the biggest danger is not term limits. I think there are problems when people stay too long. I think that's that's true. And I think that. But on the other hand, it's nice to have some people who understand what the institution is all about. That's good. And so it's a complex problem.

00;48;02;29 - 00;48;36;05
Speaker 2
I think the biggest problem we have is the is that is kind of the the desire to stay in power by drawing the districts, by by people who are elected themselves, maybe not to that institute level, but congressional districts are drawn mostly. Fortunately, there's been some change at different state levels. But when districts are drawn by members of the state legislature, I think that is totally wrong.

00;48;36;05 - 00;48;56;20
Speaker 2
I think I think it's a complete conflict of interests and I think it creates the the reason why you're talking about term limits is long term. And that's because we've have to we've done these districts in such a way as that once you're elected you can't lose, you can't. That's the way it is. We're going to go to questions.

00;48;56;23 - 00;49;39;29
Speaker 2
Ed Meese, historically is the person who has thought most about this constitutional symmetry issue. Ronald Reagan's former attorney general and a benefactor of our institution now, which audience participation, time, student questions, comments, lament whatever you want, go for it. You can do a standing ovation if we were that. Yeah, you should say something. Because I'm not modest. I will attribute silence.

00;49;39;29 - 00;49;43;15
Speaker 3
To where we go. We ought to take our where we go.

00;49;43;16 - 00;49;46;15
Speaker 2
I know him, so I'm not surprised.

00;49;46;17 - 00;49;48;07
Speaker 3
I thought you said you're not going to call on him.

00;49;48;08 - 00;49;52;26
Speaker 2
No, no, I will. So I was going to make a point. Great.

00;49;52;29 - 00;50;16;14
Speaker 1
I'll take a second earlier. My question to you is not only it's not the speech probably said that I love the fact that you laugh at yourself. Know, I also wanted to point out it just makes you a politician. And then are you stopping to sound like you're ready to campaign? I mean.

00;50;16;16 - 00;50;17;29
Speaker 3
okay. What was the second question?

00;50;17;29 - 00;50;21;09
Speaker 1
I just when you mentioned that you just contradicted yourself.

00;50;21;11 - 00;50;23;17
Speaker 2
we're were talking about journalism.

00;50;23;19 - 00;50;23;26
Speaker 3
and.

00;50;23;26 - 00;50;25;18
Speaker 2
I know you help me out here.

00;50;25;21 - 00;50;29;21
Speaker 1
Term limits. Are you going to be elected in two years? If you want to put a capital H.

00;50;29;21 - 00;50;37;16
Speaker 3
I know. Well, I don't I don't I don't think you should originally would would I.

00;50;37;18 - 00;50;40;06
Speaker 1
Think you should have the benefit of the fact that it happened.

00;50;40;06 - 00;50;46;24
Speaker 3
So that that was the contradiction. Exactly. That's why I'm a hypocrite. Right. In all.

00;50;46;24 - 00;50;54;05
Speaker 1
Seriousness, it sounds like you're just running for office because that was leftover from being in office or their aspiration.

00;50;54;07 - 00;51;10;27
Speaker 3
Well, I've been out of office. Well, I've been out of office for five years, so I haven't had a chance to do this that much. But I am not running for office. I actually I'm doing a lot of work that I'm very passionate about right now, which is keeping me engaged on Capitol Hill, and I'm thrilled about that.

00;51;10;27 - 00;51;25;03
Speaker 3
And so I've sort of directed my energies into something where I think I can make a big difference. But I love doing this kind of work and talking to students and stuff. So maybe that's why I'm so passionate.

00;51;25;06 - 00;52;03;28
Speaker 2
I'd like to say that it was already mentioned, but that both Mimi and I are active participants in FMC, which is the former members of Congress and former members of Congress, has allowed Democrats and Republicans to come together and to really deal with some of the most pressing issues that our nation before our nation. And I want to thank FMC for at least supporting this and creating this program called Congress to Campus.

00;52;04;00 - 00;52;06;06
Speaker 3
there's a question.

00;52;06;08 - 00;52;21;09
Unknown
I guess my name's Will, a junior, and I'm dying and wondering. You talked a lot about this and how that frames the issues that we see and that we don't see a lot of the stuff. We just don't.

00;52;21;11 - 00;52;25;20
Speaker 1
Know how can you guys help the American.

00;52;25;20 - 00;52;35;23
Unknown
Public see what goes on behind the scenes, even with the media, to show how quickly reframe the issue so that we, the media, show what should be shown.

00;52;35;26 - 00;52;38;14
Speaker 1
And not just what they want to?

00;52;38;17 - 00;53;00;17
Speaker 3
Well, I think when you have controversial issues that finally both sides of the aisle have to come together. To give you an example, the budget, the budget has to be passed. Now, we did a continuing resolution. The budget has to be passed by the beginning of March. You're right now seeing, you know, a lot of stuff out there about, you know, Republicans are going to bend here, the Democrats are going to bend here.

00;53;00;20 - 00;53;28;16
Speaker 3
Speaker Johnson's going to have to he's going to have to work with the Democrats in order to get a budget done, which, by the way, he's going to I think once that budget does happen, and then it's incumbent upon the members who voted for the budget on both sides of the aisle to talk about and post on, you know, social media that they came together to do something for the American people.

00;53;28;18 - 00;53;45;22
Speaker 3
They have to sort of take the initiative, because I don't know that the media will cover it because, I mean, the media is going to cover that, but they're not going to cover it maybe in a good light because they need to they need to sell stories. I mean, that's what the media has to do. So it really is the responsibility of the members.

00;53;45;22 - 00;54;10;22
Speaker 3
And I want to just give you highlight something here when it comes to the budget. And I know you you know this and Ellen probably knows this, but I was doing a little research on the budget the other day, 1974, under President Nixon, the Budget Act of 1974 was the current system we use now under that legislation for the budget.

00;54;10;25 - 00;54;41;00
Speaker 3
It has only four times since then that Congress has passed a budget on time with all 12 appropriation bills. The last time was 1997. That was 27 years ago that Congress passed a budget on time. We've been doing the same drill with the budget every year since 1997. I thought that was fascinating. When I when I did my research.

00;54;41;03 - 00;55;27;23
Speaker 2
The complaints about the media were not new. So most people who were in the field of political science regard Alexis de Tocqueville as democracy in America. As one of the greatest, many believe with good reason, is the greatest book ever written about American politics. Even though it was published in 1831, he complained about the media, the atmosphere, the irresponsibility, and the conclusion he came to was actually the model that Pete Peterson, our dean, laid out is the principle of our school.

00;55;27;25 - 00;56;10;26
Speaker 2
After complaining about the media, Tocqueville said, For all its problems, this system is better than any other system because the best practicable solution for an open society is an unrestrained media grounded in viewpoint diversity, even if you don't like a lot of it. And what Tocqueville argued is all the proposals to restrict the media constrain it for all of its liabilities, all the alternatives, Tocqueville argues, to restrict it are even worse.

00;56;10;29 - 00;56;25;19
Speaker 2
So I'm not sure that the media, per se, is the problem. The lack of viewpoint, diversity will always be the problem.

00;56;25;22 - 00;56;35;06
Unknown
I have a question for you on social media. Sometimes I see these posts of placed to action to message or.

00;56;35;07 - 00;56;39;04
Speaker 3
Email or tweet to local officials to raise.

00;56;39;06 - 00;56;56;25
Unknown
Awareness about a problem which I assume you already know about the issues. And does it is it effective for civilians to email the first tweet to say that we really want this to happen? Is it effective?

00;56;56;28 - 00;57;27;14
Speaker 3
I can start. So to answer your question, yes, that is effective and it is helpful. But understand that there are special interest groups who might be promoting a certain piece of legislation that they have a very organized group of people that contact their elected official to promote something. So sometimes it's organic, like what you're probably talking about, but sometimes it's very orchestrated.

00;57;27;17 - 00;57;52;14
Speaker 3
And members can usually tell when somebody is doing this and their constituents are doing this and it's organic and they can tell when it's being orchestrated by orchestrated by or an organization. And one way they can tell that it's being orchestrated is people say the same thing versus somebody saying, you know, somebody's going to you. It's different, but the same message but said differently.

00;57;52;18 - 00;58;20;16
Speaker 2
I want to follow up on that for me, very similar to what Mimi just said, if I wish if I received the same letter from everybody, it it makes less of a dent. Less. I'm not saying it doesn't have any, but it's less If you've taken the time to write a personal letter or a personal email and you express your feelings, I feel like I have a responsibility to talk to you.

00;58;20;17 - 00;58;41;29
Speaker 2
Get back to you once we begin to develop that kind of relationship, you have much more of an impact than on me, than than a mass attempt where all you're being asked to do is to really sign your name. And I'm not saying it's not important. I'll take it, I'll listen, I'll read it. But it doesn't really impact.

00;58;41;29 - 00;59;05;05
Speaker 2
It's not even though your name is on it, I don't believe you know, you really have spent the time to try to contact and and that means more when you and even if it comes from a mass group, you're asked to do it. If you write your own letter or you take, it means much more to me.

00;59;05;07 - 00;59;45;07
Unknown
So there's been a lot of talk about that's serious, but the inside is worth talking about. But I like that because, like your other side.

00;59;45;09 - 01;00;09;25
Speaker 3
So it depends on the district. So what you're seeing is probably from some of the far right districts where you have a lot of Republicans, heavy Republican voter registration, that's a safe Republican seat. Those people tend to be more conservative they're on the further right and there's a handful of them. There's the Freedom Caucus. And so those are the people that are going to typically say, I'm not going to do anything.

01;00;09;25 - 01;00;30;21
Speaker 3
I'm not going to do anything because their voter registration is so heavily Republican that if they if they even swing towards the middle a little bit, they will probably get challenged in the primary by somebody who's going to go further. Right. You have a very small group of the conference. There's what now we have about hundred and 20 on our side.

01;00;30;21 - 01;01;00;23
Speaker 3
Now we're to 21. We were losing some. But you have how many members of the Freedom Caucus now? About 40. Maybe. Maybe 40 out of it. You know, that's a small group of people when you're talking about the whole conference now, there's always going to be those people on the far right. The challenge the Republicans have is that their majority is so slim that they can't afford to lose votes.

01;01;00;26 - 01;01;21;11
Speaker 3
So those 40 over here carry a lot of power right now. When I was a member, we had like 230 Republicans. A member takes only 218 to pass a vote to pass the bill. And so we had a lot more room to let some of those guys on the far right say what they want to say, say do what you want to do.

01;01;21;11 - 01;01;33;20
Speaker 3
But we still got stuff done. So it really depends on what the makeup is of the conference and it depends on the makeup of the individual in their district.

01;01;33;22 - 01;01;57;17
Speaker 2
But, you know, as a Democrat, I can just tell you not that Democrats don't do this also, but and you may not like this everybody, but I think on a visceral reaction that has been exacerbated by President Trump, I agree. I think President Trump has defined his relationships that you're with me all the time or you're the enemy.

01;01;57;19 - 01;02;00;16
Speaker 2
I don't think that's very healthy. You know.

01;02;00;18 - 01;02;03;18
Speaker 3
I agree with Alan on that. By the way.

01;02;03;20 - 01;02;20;14
Speaker 2
Did someone in the. Yes. Excuse me, could you even stand up so we can hear you?

01;02;20;17 - 01;02;36;15
Unknown
And I want to say. Sure. First of all, I think it's pretty good and also smart to stay out of trouble.

01;02;36;17 - 01;02;37;11
Speaker 2
Can you repeat.

01;02;37;11 - 01;03;01;04
Speaker 3
That? Yeah. How do you manage to stay ethical like and but you have to see if I got this right. You have to go. You know, you've got your your people are supporting you. You've got your your constituents, you've got your staff, you've got like how do you balance all they could be competing interests, right? Like, but how do you make sure that, you know, you're balancing it and I'll start on it.

01;03;01;08 - 01;03;17;14
Speaker 3
You can't please everybody and you have to be able to be firm and you have to do what's right. I mean, the last thing first of all, members of Congress, all they want to do is get reelected unless like Alan and they decide, I've been here long enough, I want to retire. Most of the time they want to get reelected.

01;03;17;17 - 01;03;43;20
Speaker 3
So they need to be careful. They don't want to get their themselves in trouble and end up in jail. That's not going to be good. So they got to be careful. But you also have to be able to stand up to some of the like you call them investors, some of your supporters. Like I remember one of the hardest things for me to do was when I was usually with somebody on a piece of legislation and then for some reason I couldn't be with them anymore.

01;03;43;20 - 01;04;04;25
Speaker 3
I couldn't support them. I had a chief of staff when I was in the state legislature and she had this chicken bobblehead and she would threaten to put that chicken bobblehead on my desk if I didn't call somebody. I didn't want to call to tell them I couldn't be with them on a certain piece of legislation because I was always with them, but I couldn't be with them on this.

01;04;05;00 - 01;04;25;26
Speaker 3
And those aren't easy calls. But you had people elect you because they believe in what you said to them. They believe in what your message is, that they believe in you and nobody's ever going to be perfect but you. But you don't want to mislead people because the worst thing you could do is say, I am with you and then turn around and go vote against them.

01;04;25;29 - 01;04;44;11
Speaker 3
That is the worst thing. You're better off telling them upfront I can't be with you. So why don't you go find your vote from somebody else? Because I can't be that person. They're going to respect you a lot more. And that's something that I think is very important. If any of you ever want to run for office, I highly recommend you let people know where you stand.

01;04;44;13 - 01;05;08;11
Speaker 2
I agree. I can just share with you. When I was the state legislature, I was sharing this the Senate Committee on Transportation and that we were the committee. It came through my committee. Shall we stop? Okay. Now it just the high speed rail we put out on the ballot. The high speed rail came through Senate transportation. I supported that.

01;05;08;14 - 01;05;32;08
Speaker 2
But the more I watched it being implemented, the more I watched the decisions that the high speed rail authority was making. We held hearings. I began to question that. I began to think that they were not really fiscally responsible to the people of California. This was not they were choosing the wrong. They were making decisions based upon personal interests, etc., etc..

01;05;32;10 - 01;06;08;25
Speaker 2
So I decided the last year when I came up, when I just before I left the state Senate, before I had already run for Congress, I started the process of running for Congress. I decided I could not could no longer support the financial plan of the high speed rail. Well, some of the people, especially in Washington, called me Democrats and said, You can't do that to President Biden.

01;06;09;00 - 01;06;35;05
Speaker 2
That was in 2012, needs this for his reelection. And sometimes and I'm sure I'm not always ethical, but sometimes you make a decision and you really know that you've got to stick with it because it's the right thing to do for you. Maybe other people, it's not. And it's a very painful and difficult decision to do. And you're not always sure you're right on.

01;06;35;08 - 01;07;01;22
Speaker 2
And so that happened. I lost some support in Washington when I was running because I violated the party, wanted it badly. I love the party, but I could not support that plan. I just couldn't do it and I couldn't vote for it. And you have to be able to deal with the consequences. And there are consequences when you do that.

01;07;01;25 - 01;07;09;03
Speaker 2
Well, I want to thank everybody for very intelligent questions, the congressman for his excellent presentation.

01;07;09;06 - 01;07;13;04
Unknown
Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very.

01;07;13;06 - 01;07;17;19
Speaker 2
Much. Goodbye. That's all. Thank you.